Dogs & Kids Series Part 1: Navigating Raising Kids and Dogs Together with Michelle Stern

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Welcome to the Dogs & Kids Series! Struggling to find balance managing your family and your furry friends? Join us in this insightful conversation with Michelle Stern, founder of Pooch Parenting and a licensed family dog mediator, as she shares her expertise on creating a harmonious environment for both your kids and your dogs.

Michelle sheds light on the unique challenges parents face when dealing with dogs and children, such as barking during naptime or chasing kids during playdates. She emphasizes the importance of working with a dog trainer who understands the whole family dynamic and can help provide the support and guidance needed to maintain a loving relationship with both your children and your pets. We also discuss the significance of setting up safety plans and systems, as well as anticipating potential risks to ensure the well-being of everyone involved.

As our conversation continues, we delve into the emotional aspects of managing dogs and motherhood, including feelings of guilt, loneliness, and isolation that can arise in various situations. Michelle offers valuable advice on how to reclaim pieces of your relationship with your dog amidst the chaos and provides essential tips for families considering adding a dog to their home. Don't miss out on this invaluable episode that will help you navigate the intricate world of raising kids and dogs together, and ultimately, foster a peaceful and loving environment for your entire family.

Connect With Today's Guest:
Pooch Parenting
Michelle's IG & FB
Work With Michelle
FREE Pre-Baby Bootcamp

Mentioned In This Episode:
Kim Brophey L.E.G.S.

Let's Connect On Instagram:
connect with the Show (@mamascupofambition)
connect with Rachel Mae (@rachelmaemusic)

May your dreams be ambitious and may your coffee be strong! xoxo -Rachel Mae

Transcript

Hey, I'm Rachel Mae, Country Singer, songwriter and host of Mamas Cup of Ambition, the podcast for ambitious mamas with BIG dreams and little kids. Or maybe your kids aren't so little anymore, but your dreams are still just as big as ever.

Wherever you find yourself in your motherhood journey, if you've got ambitious goals that you're longing to achieve and you're looking to spark inspiration, cultivate motivation and develop community with like-minded mamas, you're in the right place.

As a new mama myself, I created this show as a place for honest and empowering conversations about motherhood, entrepreneurship and dream chasing. So grab a notebook, top off that cup of coffee and let's turn our goals into action plans and our dreams into reality together. Now let's jump in to today's episode.

Rachel Mae : Hello, hello and welcome to Mamas Cup of Ambition the Dogs and Kids series. I am so excited about this. If you know me at all or you've listened to the show before, then you will know that dogs are a huge part of my life. I've worked with dogs professionally for over 20 years and they're my obsession, so it was only a matter of time before my dog world and my mama podcasting world collided. And my friend, now is that time. I'm so excited about today's guests and, if I'm honest, one of my driving motivations for doing this series in the first place was to be able to have this guest on my show. So today's guest is Michelle Stern.

Now Michelle, she has a podcast herself. It's called the Pooch Parenting Podcast, but there's so much more. She's a licensed family dog mediator, and if you don't know what that is, don't worry, we're going to get into that in this conversation. She's a certified dog behavior counselor, a trainer, a fear free pet professional, a dog foster mom, and for 16 years she was a teacher. And, fun fact Michelle also used to teach toddlers how to cook, so she was teaching cooking classes with toddlers. Can you just imagine the fun and chaos that that must have provided She's a mom of two.

She's got a biological daughter and an adopted son, and Michelle is just so knowledgeable when it comes to navigating our relationships with our dogs and our kids, and so, of course, i had to have her on the show. We had such a fun and engaging conversation and, honestly, i could have talked to her all day long, and I'm so happy that I get to share that conversation with you because she just brought so much good stuff. So I'm not going to wait another minute. Let's get into my conversation with Michelle Stern.

Rachel Mae: Okay, Michelle, Iam so excited. I know I just told you this as we were chatting before we hit record, but I am over the moon excited to have you here. You've been on my wish list of guests since I started this podcast and I am so happy that you're here, and I would just be so thrilled if you would introduce yourself and tell my audience a little bit about who you are and what you do.

Michelle Stern: Okay, well, i'm blushing right now For those of you who can't see me. I feel so special and wanted. It's like lovely. Okay, so my name is Michelle Stern.  I am the founder of Pooch Parenting. I'm a mom and you can hear my dog. I apologize, this is what happens when I do podcasts. He wants to contribute, sorry.

I was a teacher for 16 years and I'm a dog behavior consultant, a certified force-free trainer, but I don't really like to think of myself as a trainer. I'm also a licensed family dog mediator and that actually describes what I do much more than a trainer, because a trainer is what people might search for. but I don't really feel like I'm trying hard to tell dogs what to do. I'm more about having a discussion with the dogs and trying to figure out how we can live together in harmony. but my real specialty is supporting overwhelmed parents who are raising kids and dogs together. So it's this beautiful combination of my experience as a parent. I have one biological child and one adopted child, who had a lot of developmental issues, shall we say, growing up, and I was in the classroom for a really long time, and so I have a lot of experience as a mom, supporting parents and, of course, working with the kids directly. So this is such a beautiful, i guess, marriage of my passion for animals and my experience as an educator.

So that's who I am So great. And Pippin is like, yeah, and I'm here too.  Oh my God, it's so embarrassing My dog.

Rachel Mae: Hoss chimes in all the time, so the dog commentary is a part of this show, So it's very welcome Yeah.

Michelle Stern: Yeah, he would like some credit. By the way, his name is Pippin, he's three and a half and he's a border terrier. In case you're wondering what makes that horrible barking sound Oh my gosh.

Rachel Mae: Well, okay, I'd love for you to tell us a little bit more about what exactly it means to be a licensed family dog mediator and what might be the indicator that a family should be seeking that out.

Michelle Stern: Okay, well, I'm so excited that you asked, because people ask me what is a family dog mediator? So I'm going to focus this conversation on parents, since that's who we're talking to and that's my favorite thing. But the idea that your dog might bark when your kid is napping or your dog might be chasing the kids you have over for play dates.

And those are behaviors that are really challenging to work with as a parent, but it doesn't mean that they're bad behaviors. If we're looking at the why, why does the dog do those things Right? So the typical request that people have is I want you to fix this. I want you to make X, Y and Z stop. I don't like it.

So, for example, pippin barking, i want you to make him not bark ever. It's annoying and it totally is annoying by the way. It gets me like, gets under my skin. However, i do have to pause and I have to think okay, he's a dog and dogs communicate, and barking is one of the ways dogs communicate. But instead of saying I must stop the barking, what I need to do is I need to get really curious, and family dog mediation allows us to have this lens through which we explore why dogs are doing what they do.

So basically it's a model by a woman named Kim Brophy, who's an incredible animal. She's an ethologist. I studied animal behavior in college, so this is totally my jam, and the fact that she's applying what I studied in college to dogs just is like all the puzzle pieces line up and it makes perfect sense. But basically she has this model and she calls it the legs model, right, so I'm going to take you through. Legs is an acronym, yeah, l stands for the learning history.

So what experiences has this dog had in its past that shapes what they know and what they feel. So were they punished for certain things? Are they afraid of certain things? Are they excited and motivated by certain things? Now we have to remember that parents also have legs, not the ones we walk on, but the ones that affect our learning and our behavior. So this can be really tricky because, as a mom, I'm going to come in and the way that I respond to my dog for doing things I love or don't love may be related to my learning history as well.

So am I going to shout? Am I going to raise my voice? Am I going to get big and mean? Am I going to be gentle and kind, and a lot of that is based on how we were raised or how we intentionally try to change how we were raised and try to do better. Moving on which, a lot of us I luckily have really great parents, but I know a lot of people didn't, and I know that a lot of those people are trying super hard to do things in a new way.

Same with people who've had dogs in the past. Where you might have used training strategies with your dogs in the past that cause pain or intimidation. I know that I followed a certain TV celebrity because everyone did back in the day And I did some things back then that I totally am so ashamed of now. So that goes to learning history. So that's the L of light.

The E talks about the environment. So the environment literally can be how calm is your household? Is it a circus? Is it total chaos and mayhem all the time, Or is it a household that maybe has some structured guidelines? Is it dogs and kids and parents really benefit from structure? And, as hard as it can be to feel like we have any structure in our lives when we have little kids running around like Tasmanian doubles, they actually all do better when there are some boundaries in place.

So maybe that boundary looks like we have a pen set up and the dog's bed is inside of a pen, so that our toddler, who's learning to walk, doesn't use our dog as a stabilizer, because maybe your dog has arthritis and your dog will bite your child if your child grabs onto them for balance, because their body hurts, right.

But again, setting up the environment for us as parents is a huge thing too, because you cannot leave your kid and dog to go pee without management in place because a bite could happen. So the environment can impact your stress levels, it can impact you and I were talking about daycare before.

So a lot of parents are so desperate, they're so tired and overwhelmed that they think, oh, my gosh, perfect solution, i'm going to send the dog to daycare during the day so I can focus on my baby. But if that dog isn't a good candidate for daycare, that dog comes home even more dysregulated than they were before, because they were in a really stressful, poorly managed environment. Because there are amazing daycares out there, but there are also some that really are just kind of free for all. So that's the environment piece, that's the E, the G is genetics.

Now again, humans, your genetics. No, i mean this is going to sound dramatic, but it's important. Do you have a tendency towards addiction, for example? because that may impact your behavior with your kids or with your dogs right Now? with your dog the genetics maybe are you prone to separation anxiety? Do you have a genetic predisposition to get cancer?

Do you have a genetic predisposition to resource guard, which means that, for example, golden retrievers these days tend to be very resource-guarding, which means that if they are on the couch and you try to move them, they may snap at you. Or if they have a favorite bone or a toy and your kid crawls near them, they may growl or bite your child because that's their item and I'm enough protected at all costs.

Now, resource guarding is actually a really normal behavior, and if you were a street dog and did not guard your resources, you'd starve to death. However, in a family environment, it's a really unpleasant and unsafe behavior.

So genetics can really impact who you are and it contributes a lot of different factors. And then the last factor that we tend to forget about is S, which is self, and for that one I basically like to just say look at the individual, the actual individuals. So do they have food allergies, or environmental allergies, or arthritis or cancer? Do they wake up in a bad mood because that's just their personality? Are they a morning person or a nighttime person? And by person I mean dog, of course. Yeah, there's crossover.

Rachel Mae: Even with our kids there's that crossover. Like I have two kids and they're so different. They're individuals and they have their own needs and desires and preferences, just like our dogs and just like ourselves. So there's a lot of crossover there.

Michelle Stern:Yeah, my kids are totally different as well. Well, one is adopted. So genetically they're not related, but just raising them. even in the same household, the same environment, they each turned out to be entirely different people.

So you need to look at that, because how your dog feels, for example, maybe they're allergic to the protein and the food you're giving them and so they have stomach pain all the time. that we never even noticed So sometimes somebody will call me a very common one is once the kids start moving, crawling, scooting, commando whatever their move happens to be and they say, oh, my dog was fine when the baby was a baby and didn't go anywhere, and now things have changed and I really need your help because the dog is growling at the baby.

But it could be that the dog doesn't like kids or toddlers And they have every right to have that opinion And we can't necessarily make them love your kids. But what we can do is we can help them feel safe around your kids so they don't feel compelled to bite them. Yes, It's the little things.

So, basically, family dog mediation really helps you to look at this whole picture, really get curious. What could be causing these behaviors? what could help your whole family live together in harmony more? we need to meet the legs of the parents, of the kids and of the dogs whenever we're looking at this family dynamic And I really don't think that like, let's say, you Google dog trainer near me because you're feeling overwhelmed they may not have a really good sense of that whole picture. Or, in my case you know, as a dog and child specialist, they may not have experience with child development or teaching or whatever or how to even just be cool if a mom needs to whip out her boob and breastfeed her kid in the middle of a session.

Like that happens to me constantly And I don't even like. I'm like I even have to tell parents, sometimes at the start of a session, if the baby's fussing, and I can see that the mom is feeling kind of anxious. I said all the time like, hey, this is a place where you do whatever you need to do If you need to pump, if you need to pull your boob out, if you need to get a bottle ready, i will wait for you. Let's take care of your baby so that you can focus on what I'm helping you with your dog. That.

Rachel Mae: I really want to like highlight that right there. That's such an important piece of the puzzle in finding the right fit for whatever it is that you're doing, like having somebody who understands your current circumstances and somebody who can even just pick up on that sort of anxiety. And I think, as you're saying, that we all can kind of pull that visual in our mind because we've all been there of like you're trying to hold a conversation with somebody, but yet you know that the baby needs something And we feel like we have to kind of stifle that. And so finding somebody who understands that piece of the puzzle so that you can really just be fully open and in the moment, like what a huge distinction to make.

Michelle Stern: No, I love that you called it out, because I do think that I've evolved a lot over the years. You know your audience can probably relate to this which is that we were all really great moms until we had our own kids right. And so we all were like, Oh, I would never allow that to happen or Oh, I would never be caught dead in that situation. And of course we all are all the time We are the one whose kid is tantruming in the grocery store And no matter how much preparation we did, sometimes things just happen.

And so, you know, I love it when I am working with a client, because I see all my clients over Zoom, So I don't have to be your neighbor to work with you And I don't have to come into your house. You don't even have to clean your house, You don't have to do anything. We just pull up a Zoom. You can even stick me like against a plain wall So I don't see your mess, I don't care.

But like the idea that I can talk to my people about bath time routines or bedtime routines and I'm not dissing dog trainers, okay, I just want to be really clear. But when I call somebody a regular dog trainer versus a family dog mediator. I think they see things through a different lens And they're really focusing on dog behavior, Whereas I'm focusing on family harmony, And so I understand that if you're a family with two kids and they have bedtime routines that are fairly extensive and you have a puppy, this is going to be an issue.

Because where is the puppy going to go when you are focused on bedtime routine, because you can't just leave the puppy out. They're going to pee behind your couch, or they're going to eat your favorite shoes, or they're going to tear up your sofa, or they're going to jump all over your kids, who are trying you're trying to get them calm for bedtime, right? So how do you do that, right? And so to have somebody who's been through you know that experience, i just think it matters And I think it helps families to just feel seen by someone 100% Like. I'm not doing it now because my kids are in college, but I have done it and I've helped hundreds of families do it presently, so I'm in it still with you.

Rachel Mae: Well, and I think we're so used to calling on specialists for things right Like I can, as you're saying, this I can think of, like with just my son, wyatt. He had tongue tie So we had to see a very specific dentist to have his tongue tie released. We also have a pediatrician, but we sought the help of a specialist in that case. We have worked with lactation consultants for feeding issues. We've worked with chiropractors for things like.

I think as mamas we are used to seeking out somebody who has that extra understanding or knowledge base. But I think when it comes to our dogs, i think sometimes it's easy to just think that a trainer is a trainer, but we're having somebody who can also zoom out and see the whole picture of what you're dealing with through a lens of. I've been there, I understand, i know what goes into the logistics of bedtime or of any of the routines that we go through.

So I would love to talk to you about that transition when our kids become mobile, and how that looks in our household and how that changes things for our dogs and our kids and us as parents, and what are some of the common missteps that you see parents making with management for their dogs and kids. When we get to that point where kids are now on the move,

Michelle Stern: oh, I love this question so much. So the biggest misstep is just assuming everything will stay the same. Things were fine, therefore they will remain fine is like the biggest misjudgment, i guess. And it's not through anybody's fault, it's really just you don't know what you don't know, and it's really easy to think well, my dog is awesome, my dog is really well trained, my dog didn't mind the baby. But everything changes when the baby moves, because now the baby is this X factor.

We don't know where they're going to go next. Are they going to poke the dog in the eyeball? Are they going to stick their finger or a toy up the dog's nose? Are they going to pull their tail? Are they going to grab their fur?

And then we have to bring into it that maybe some of our kids have neurodiversity And so maybe we have kids that have sound sensitivities, we have kids that have texture sensitivities, we have kids that can't be within certain proximity to a variety of different stimuli.

And so when we're looking at things like that and you have a dog that does dog things like my puppy now is crying in the background, she has a voice that if I had a sound, sensitive child in the house, then maybe that child would need to wear noise canceling headphones And we don't really think about those kinds of things.

But really the main thing is a lack of management in advance, and I actually, when I work with people, my favorite thing to do is to start working with people before the baby even shows up, and there's a lot of work we need to do to get the dog ready and we don't, people don't really anticipate that, but when I'm working with families who come to me because they're overwhelmed, because they're now in this toddler phase maybe a red flag, something happened and they're like, oh God, I need Michelle to help me.

Then the first thing we do is I'm like, okay, here's my Amazon list, let's get some safety gear set up, so pens and gates and a little camera, or you could use your baby monitors, if they have cameras, and you can just set up systems so that you can breathe, because you can't make dinner if you have the dog and child in the same space because you can't be watching.

Rachel Mae: I think that's such an important piece of this conversation too that's worth highlighting, that we think that it just is common knowledge that you shouldn't leave your dog and your child unsupervised, even just in the next room over. But I think it's really worth noting here that things can happen so quickly and with dogs maybe there was a really clear communication between the dog and the child, and the dog was signaling beautifully with all of their body language, trying to alert, and you don't pick up on it because you're cooking or you're going to the bathroom, like you said earlier.

It's one of those things where I can really see how anticipating this and trying to get out ahead of it and once your kid is on the move and they're toddling around and they're moving and crawling and walking and doing all of the things you already, as a mama and as the caretaker of this little child, you're already running around. And so if you're trying to run around and keep eyes on them and also build the plane as you're flying it, it's so much more stressful.

Michelle Stern: Oh my God, I love that analogy.

Rachel Mae: I know there will be people who are listening right now, who have babies and dogs right now, like this is something you, even if you're not to that toddler stage, you can start anticipating this now Yeah absolutely.

Michelle Stern: Please, don't wait. Yeah, don't wait, because, honestly, if we aren't careful, if your dog bites your child, your dog is probably going to have to be euthanized, and I'm sorry And I don't want to be all red flag waving the danger zone, but this is the truth.

Rachel Mae:The stakes are high.

Michelle Stern: The stakes are incredibly high, and you really need to look at what level of risk you're willing to take as a family, and what you may be willing to take on as a risk may not be the same as what your partner is willing to take on as a risk. I have had couples as clients of mine who are so completely on opposite pages in terms of. I'm not even talking about euthanasia, I'm just saying that whether the dog goes and lives somewhere, else.

 And another person saying you know me or the dog, or you know, I had one husband say that he was willing to get a separate apartment to keep the dog alive and live with him at the expense of living with his wife and children because he loved the dog so much.

But the dog had, the dog put the kid in the ER and it was a toddler, and typically toddlers predominantly get bitten in the head because that's at the same height as the dog, and so an injury to the head of a toddler could be life threatening, and I just don't want to see something like that happen. You know, a very common bite is where the dog's upper teeth get close to the eyebrow and the lower teeth get below the eye And if you're lucky the dog's teeth don't get in the eye, but it's. You know this is a bite that we see all the time.

Rachel Mae: And it's hard to talk about this, but it's really important that we talk about this too, because, you're right, there's no point in us skirting around the truth. Not only that your dog, their life is at stake, but also, like, your child's life is at stake, and those are two very honest things that we don't do anyone any good to dance around, so I appreciate that you're including this, yeah.

Michelle Stern: I mean, i want people to know the truth. And the other thing also is that, as a mom myself, we have enough guilt just with normal stuff. And if an accident happens on your watch, that's a level of guilt that nobody needs to take on in addition to the are you getting in a vegetables guilt. That's a guilt because we think we're supposed to be doing something and maybe we're worried about it And, oh God, i'm not like Instagram, perfect breakfast prepare or whatever. And you're like, Oh, I should be better.

But this is a whole another level of guilt. This is like if I just set up a barrier, then my dog wouldn't have bit my child in the face kind of guilt, which is a whole different thing. And we don't want your child to have a lifelong fear of dogs. So it's psychologically also difficult on the dog to be put in a position where it feels so stressed out that it wants to put teeth on skin.

And we have to think about not just physical safety but emotional safety. These are the two categories of safety that I really talk about a lot because you know, a dog generally doesn't have a good time biting. It's only biting because it feels horrible And it feels like. It needs space from the trigger, and the trigger is the kid. Unfortunately, we call it your kid a trigger, sorry, but like if the child is climbing on your dog or poking your dog or going in your dog's crate or messing with your dog's food. That's inappropriate, yes, it's just not safe behavior.

And also, let's pretend your dog is a unicorn and is the perfect dog and puts up with everything. Great I'm. First of all, i love that for you, but second of all, your child is going to repeat that behavior with other dogs that are not unicorns. They're going to go to the grandma's house and try it with the grandma's dog And then the grandma's dog is going to bite them. And then, oh God, then there's whole new layers of family drama that you never wanted to see, you know.

And then there's navigating family dynamics And in fact I did a podcast episode about it about expectations with relatives, because we have people who are planning family trips with you know, family members who have dogs, and any of you are in that situation, whether you have a dog or whether you're going to be with cousins or siblings or grandparents that have dogs. Set very clear expectations ahead of time, because a lot of people will like rent a vacation house and they'll have all these dogs together that, first of all, aren't even used to being together.

And then you have kids. And so set clear expectations that people will bring baby gates, that maybe you'll put a dog away if the child is scared, or put the child somewhere different if the dog is scared, and that we really have to work together in a cohesive unit to try to make everyone feel safe and physically be safe.

Rachel Mae: Yeah well, and sort of piggybacking on that, something that comes to mind too is like at this age, as our kids are getting into that toddler phase, we're often like starting to have play dates or interacting with other families.

 And I'm always like a little extra when it comes to going over to somebody's house with dogs because, like my friend teases me and she says we live in a gated community because I have baby gates and expanse everywhere. We do Like we live in a gated community. And  when other kids that aren't my own come over here  we remove the dogs completely from the situation because it's just easier on everybody.

I don't have to spend the whole time then like working with the dogs and trying to keep the kids from like doing the like, hovering, staring right at the dog action. So it's easier for me to just put the dogs in a completely different space, away from everything, until the company has left.

So I think what you're talking about like setting those expectations with other families that you engage with as well, that you're allowed to say what you're comfortable with And if you're not comfortable with your children interacting with a dog that's not your own I think acknowledging that and creating that as part of your communication, not just like, hey, my kid has these food allergies or there's all these things that you like sort of exchange information when you're setting up play dates. But I think this is another important piece of that conversation.

Michelle Stern: When your kids are really little, you do know the parents, but when they get a little bit older, you don't sometimes, and your kids are making friends with kids and you don't know who the adults are and if your kid is really safe in that environment. And if you're just not sure, well, first of all it's easy to open the door and say, hey, do you have dogs or do you have cats? And maybe they don't, and then it's a non-issue. But if they do and you're just not sure, then I would say you know what? I need to host the play date at my house, and that's okay, and invite the mom over. You guys can have cup of coffee and hang out a little bit.

So I had a client one time who kind of blew my socks off because she was kind of an absent parent and it was. It was really difficult because she had a dog who bit strangers and the way that she ran her household was that her door was always unlocked and her kids would come and go and they would sometimes bring other kids over without her knowledge. And it was a huge liability. I mean it was dangerous, and so there are going to be times when you may need to shift your parenting style occasionally, because safety has to be a priority, because you cannot put someone else's child at risk, because you don't want to use management.

And some parents will make excuses for why we don't use baby gates or pens, and they will tell me why live in an RV or I have an open floor plane house and I can't put baby gates anywhere because we don't have doors. And I have solutions to every single one of those reasons. And so if you feel like you would do better, if you knew how to do better, please ask me and I will tell you how to do better, because if you're not being proactive, then things happen, because it's absolutely impossible to watch everything all the time. It is impossible until somebody figures out how to make us three extra sets of eyeballs on our head.

Rachel Mae: Yeah, we can't see everything, and who wants that? anyway, like as a mama, my management tools, I feel like are my lifesavers, like literally and figuratively, because I love having spaces where I know I can set my dogs up and set my kids up and they're separate and I know like then I can kind of turn off one part of my brain a little bit. I know I've got a safe situation set up for both of them and so I'm not having to like 

Michelle Stern: Yeah, I agree with you. And and the other thing too is that you know that's what you're supposed to be doing if you don't have a barrier. But a lot of people just hope for the best. And it goes beyond watching.

Supervision doesn't just mean being in the same space. It sometimes it literally means sitting in between your dog and your child. So maybe you're on the couch and you're reading bedtime stories to your child and the dog is on the couch but on the other side of your body. So if your child reaches over to like grab at the dog's ear, you can just block with your arm or your leg and that is supervision, right, it is, is really being present.

But you know, like a lot of us, i have this. You know, social media addiction, probably. You know Facebook is my jam. I know a lot of people love Instagram, but I'm old, so Facebook is for me and you can't enjoy the interactions like that's how I met you, was through Facebook and and it really it does fill my cup, so to speak. I mean play on words for your name, of your show, but like it really does fill my cup to meet some of these amazing people.

And if I were denied the opportunity to be able to sit and just relax and look at my phone or look at my laptop and meet some really cool people who are in the same circumstances as I am, then I don't have the full capacity to parent at my best, because there's a piece of me missing as a mom, like if I'm lonely, because a lot of us feel lonely because we're in our own little bubble.

And you know social media, since I mentioned it, is it's a blessing in a car, right, it can make us feel less alone, but it can also make us feel super alone because you know, on Instagram in particular, where the interface is really dependent on beautiful photographs, and you see things that are staged and that are photoshopped or that are just ignorant and it may look like your dog sucks and everyone else has great dogs and what's wrong with my dog and why is my dog a jerk?

Rachel Mae: Because you're seeing one snapshot.

Michelle Stern: One snapshot and it may be a lie because it may be fabricated. I saw a really great interview with this professional photographer the other day. One of my colleagues interviewed him and she's also a dog and child specialist And it was the most awesome interview because they talked about how to get really great photos of kids and dogs and he showed us how they do these composite photos where they'll show like the newborn baby in the basket.

That's one photo, and then they have another photo with the dog in a certain position and then a really good photographer, because he knows that this guy in particular he knows that that's an unsafe interaction to have the dog next to the newborn in the basket. Then he combines those two images using technology to make it look like a certain thing is happening.

Now I think that's cool, but I do have mixed feelings even about that, because people see it, people see it and they copy it and they think it's normal and they don't know that it's a fabrication And so they real quick lay their baby on their sleeping dog And when that dog wakes up and stands up, your newborn baby cracks their head on the floor or the baby's vulnerable, tiny little fragile body is right next to the dog's teeth. I mean there's so many things wrong with all of this stuff, but it can make you feel worse than you already do and that comparison game comes up at real strong.

Rachel Mae: I think that's a really important thing that you just touched on to there about the loneliness. I think sometimes when we have situations that feel chaotic and out of hand when it relates to our dogs and our home, that can feel really isolating and lonely, like I know.

Our dog Birdie is leash reactive and I am very well versed in it and I've done a lot of training with her so I understand where her reactivity stems from, and so she's in the right home for us. However, I have had a lot of conversations with people who have dogs with reactivity, and we're in Seattle in the Pacific Northwest where it's a very dog centric town. There are dog cafes everywhere and people are downtown at the coffee shop with their dogs and it can feel really like you're missing out on something because that's not your dog's jam.

Rachel Mae: And sometimes this is just a side note here, but as somebody who does understand dog body language, I often have a really hard time with that anyway, because when you look at what the dogs are actually communicating, in a lot of those situations they're coping, not really enjoying, and you may think your dog is really loving it at the farmer's market and really they're just like coping through a stressful experience which breaks my heart.

But I think, as as mamas, when you have a chaotic situation at home with your dogs where you feel like you don't have a good handle on management, that can feel kind of isolating and lonely too, because you feel like you can't just invite people over because it's so chaotic.

That piece that you're talking about of having systems in place and having a well set up management routine for your dog, that gives you that opportunity to have that little sliver of your life back too. If you have some good systems in place, then you can have the grandparents come over or have people come over so that you're not so lonely and isolated in that experience of motherhood, especially if you've got chaos with your dogs and you feel like, oh god, I'm so embarrassed or I can't bring people over because it just gets so stressful.

Michelle Stern: Yeah, I think a lot of the time that we extend our dog to how we see ourselves. So, for example, if our dog is acting a certain way, we think that's a reflection on us in some way. And same with our kids. Like, if our kid is able to sit through story time at the library without causing a scene, then obviously it's because we're an amazing mom. But if our kid is having a fit at the same story time, then we're worried that it will be perceived that we're a terrible mom.

So our dogs are an extension of ourselves in that same way. But also I want to acknowledge too that for many people their dog was their first baby, and so you may have had a life with your dog before your child came that you're now grieving because you don't have that same life with that dog.

So maybe you used to compete in agility and that's impossible to bring a kid with you to do that. Or maybe your dog used to go on five mile off leash hikes and now you're lucky if you can let him go sniff a fire hydrant for five minutes, because between the baby and your commute and whatever other responsibilities you have, you don't have the ability to do those things anymore.

And so I just want to acknowledge again it's one of the pieces in which having somebody who really understands your circumstances and this whole huge, complex suite of feelings that are mamas or whatever are feeling, is a really important piece because part of our work together maybe just can we reclaim one tiny little piece of this relationship that you used to have, so that you don't feel as guilty or as sad that a lot of people really miss their dog.

They're like God, I have this kid and I didn't think anything would change. And everything changed. I had one mom who I've been working with. She was a professional groomer, she's also a trainer and she has a baby who's now like seven months old or so and she said you need to teach parents that they may feel differently about their dog than they did before, because my dogs used to be the center of my universe and now I have days where I don't even like them and I am a dog professional and she felt so bad about that.

Rachel Mae: We feel a lot of shame about those thoughts, right Like you don't even want to speak that because you feel so much shame about it.  That's a whole other layer of guilt, like we were talking about earlier.

Michelle Stern: Yeah, but I'd like to just be honest and I mean, if you're in it, then you're in it and let's talk about it. Yeah, so.

Rachel Mae: I want to be respectful of your time. I have one more question for you that I would really like to touch on, and that's just if somebody's listening to this and they don't have a dog already, but they have kids and they're thinking about bringing a dog into their family, what would you say to them as they start to explore that as an option for their family, like, what are some best practices in finding a dog for your family?

Michelle Stern: Okay, well, this is such an exciting concept and such a promising thing. Number one it's really hard, yeah, yes. So let's just be honest, keep with our honesty theme here. It's really hard, but it could be really awesome, okay. Number two you are doing this because you want your kids and dogs to be best friends. But they might not be, and, again, bitter pill to swallow and I'm really sorry. I'm not person and it can take a lifetime to build a relationship. So just please take your time and don't rush things.

Next thing call me first, because I can help you figure out the kind of dog. Now, when I say kind of dog, I'm not saying like, I'm saying the personality, the exercise needs, the grooming requirements, the healthcare expenses you need to budget for. You know, if you get a doodle, for example, you need to plan on, let's say, $120 every four to six weeks for grooming, unless you do it yourself, which your dog might look really funny if you do it yourself. But whatever, who cares? There are budget ways to do it. But to maintain certain coat types, for example, is very expensive.

Like honesty, time. You know how much time, how much energy, how much money, how much comfort will I have with taking on certain levels of risk. So, for example, do I want to get a Cane Corso, which is a very tough guardian breed dog, when I have, you know, an infant or a newborn? And the answer is probably not, because then it won't let you invite friends over for play dates because it will be protecting your house. And so we really need to kind of work through what you want, what your goals are, and then how to help you get those goals, and I love helping people with this.

I have a client named Ashley who I love so much, and Ashley originally had a cattle dog named Max. And Max was a lot. She had never had a cattle dog before. She didn't know anything about cattle dogs, but she fell in love with Max and he was really cute And he was not having his needs met in her family with her small child. It was turning their family upside down. Her relationship with her husband was being taxed. Her child felt unsafe.

She ended up rehoming Max to this amazing couple with no kids and they take him on these crazy hikes and kayak trips. And I mean this dog hit the jackpot with the new family. And Ashley took like a year or two to like decompress from not having this dog. And she reached out to me about six months ago and said okay, Michelle, I'm ready. You know me, you know what I struggled with with Max. Help me figure out what we need.

And so I did and I gave her a list of breeds and different characteristics that she looked for And she got a puppy and her entire Facebook feed is all like Gushy love, like she's practically lactating.

Rachel Mae: like oxytocin through the roof.

Michelle Stern: Exactly, she's like oh my God, Michelle, i just can't believe it. You saw what hell we were going through with Max And now I'm I am in the dream situation. Right, this is what I wanted.

Rachel Mae: And that's what. Max wanted too, right? Like it's such a hard decision to make and it's the worst position to be in, but yet that's love because everybody won.

Michelle Stern: It is such love. Max is in heaven. The couple that got Max loves him. He was too smart to live in their family with a little kid and a husband who felt really nervous about this really smart, working breed dog who didn't have a job. This dog now has a job and is so happy and thriving. And the dog that they end up getting was the perfect thing for their family. And so if anyone is thinking about it, please reach out and don't feel like

Rachel Mae: You're like a matchmaker.

Michelle Stern: Oh, I love matchmaking, it's my favorite. The other thing that I would say is, if you can be patient, I would love for you to wait until your kids are maybe five or six years old or older to get a dog, because at that age you will be starting to have a child that can follow directions and that could be your helper. I've helper in air quotes because you guys can't see. You know they can help you, they can contribute, so you don't feel like you have two year old twins, because that makes your life very, very, very difficult. So, if you can wait, five or six is my dream age to add dogs.

Rachel Mae: Right, and then you can sort of have more of those conversations too with kids about like understanding, consent, their needs and understanding what the dog is trying to communicate with their nonverbal cues, which it's hard to communicate that with toddlers.

Michelle Stern: Yes. And developmentally, there's no reason that a toddler should be able to read nonverbal cues and they can't developmentally.

Rachel Mae: It shouldn't be on them anyway we shouldn't be expecting them to do that.

Michelle Stern: No, that is our job as parents.  Yeah, I sometimes hear people say well, you know, the toddler needs to tell the dog no when it does something, and I'm like whoa no, put the brakes on .That is not the toddler's job, that is entirely your job. You need to be the parent here.

Rachel Mae: Well, this is amazing. Where can people find you and work with you? We want to make this accessible and I'm going to link to everything as well, but just tell them where they can find you.

Michelle Stern: Okay, so my website is poochparentingnet. That is sort of the hub of all the things on Facebook and Instagram at poochparenting.

And I have online on demand classes preparing dog for new baby, your first week home with dog and baby, and then parenting toddlers and dogs. So any of you who are kind of intrigued by some of this stuff we talked about here, my online class parenting toddlers and dogs is super cheap but high quality, right cheap, because I want everybody to be able to have access to that kind of support.

There's a workbook and stuff that comes with it and homework assignments, because I'm a teacher, but it's only going to take you like two hours. I mean it's not like a huge chunk of your time, but it's eyeopening.

And for those of you who might be expecting if anyone is expecting or adopting or working with a surrogate right now because I'm inclusive that way and you have a dog I am going to be doing a dog jealousy bootcamp coming up totally free. A bunch of really good teaching to try to prevent your dog from feeling jealous, and that's a pre baby bootcamp And, like I said, it's all totally free. It starts on June 13th 2023 and you can sign up in advance And then you have a lot of access to me, will do a lot of Q&A sessions and prizes. It's going to be super fun.

And I have a podcast I forgot about that. It's called the Pooch Parenting Podcast. You can listen on my website, but it's on Spotify, itunes or wherever Apple podcasts I don't know what it's called anymore. But all the all the podcast places it's there. And if you have a question that is not been addressed by any of the podcast episodes up to date I've done 72 of them then ask me and I'll do a podcast episode answering your question.

Rachel Mae: So I have so many gems in there. I love your podcast And you've had so many amazing guests on there too, like I could just nerd out on your podcast it's so good.

Michelle Stern: Yeah, it was really fun. You know, I had a lot of guests in the beginning and lately people have just been wanting me to answer questions and it's been so fun. So it's almost like you get a little mini session with me for free. So it's pretty fun.

Rachel Mae: This has just been so incredible. I'm going to link up to all of the things that you just mentioned and I would highly encourage you to go and get in Michelle's world, because you and your dogs and your kids will all benefit greatly.

I'm so incredibly thankful that you came on here today and dropped so much knowledge and goodness here for my audience. I know they're going to love you as much as I do.

Michelle Stern: I'm really grateful for the platform and really, at the end of the day, I just want mamas to feel supported and to feel less alone and to enjoy living with their dogs again And it doesn't have to be lonely.

Rachel Mae: And I know I've got a lot of people listening who aren't here in the Pacific Northwest. So, like Michelle said, she does virtual visits. So if you're listening to this and you're like that's my girl, I wanna work with her, go find that website and explore that as an option, because you don't even have to be in the same state. Like, what a time to be alive!

Michelle Stern:Yes for sure,

Rachel Mae: Well, thank you, Michelle. This has been such a privilege. Okay, wasn't that a great conversation? I'm so happy that I was able to bring you along for that, because I feel like Michelle just brings such a wealth of knowledge and relatability right, like she really seems to understand the experience of motherhood and parenting with dogs under the same roof, and I just love that conversation so much.

And we'll definitely be having Michelle back on again at some point in time to share her wisdom with us on a few of the other topics that we barely got to scratch the surface of. 

But stay tuned, because there's a lot more to come in this Dogs and Kids series and you're not going to want to miss a minute of it. 

Okay, so until next time, may your dreams be ambitious, may your coffee be strong and may we all have our homes set up for success when it comes to our kids and dogs. I'll talk to you soon.